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A solution to 2D/3D coexistence

Status: Acknowledged
by on ‎03-25-2019 09:12 PM

Please forward this to Insignia, Dynex, Rocketfish, or some other appropriate Best Buy Brand

Up until 2012 3D was being added to enough TVs where there was a bunch of reasonable choices. Then the 2013 Super Bowl 3D was cancelled, and 3D TVs were declining.

I think the market was misread.

3D TVs were moved to bigger, more expensive, and 4K TVs, and caused a twin problem.   Most people who wanted 3D didn’t want to be limited to the biggest, most expensive screen as their only option.  Likewise most big spenders on 4K TVs tended to be more 3D haters and went one step down, sometimes even paying more, just to avoid 3D. it gave the expensive 3D TV a simultaneous 3D Stink to 4K buyers and a big bucks stink that turned off 3D buyers.

What was the number one 3D TV model of all time?  Without looking at the numbers, I would say the Playstation 3D Display for many reasons.   First it was the cheapest 3D TV ever.  Starting at $500 and eventually went down to $180 while simultaneously selling out everywhere.  Second it was a 24 inch TV which appealed to gamers because it was 1080p for more detail, and considered the perfect size for gaming:  Big enough to focus on a specific detail, yet small enough to get the whole picture when you want to scan.  It also came in handy if you wanted to have a 3D, but your currently TV is perfectly fine, and you were not in the market for a new main TV, but wanted a separate 3D TV, just to get 3D.

My dad bought a Sony TV in 2009, before 3D was available in Sony.   It’s ten years later, and when it breaks down, there’s no opportunity to upgrade to a 3D TV.   Dad missed out because no reason to throw out a perfectly good TV just to add 3D.

For people like my dad, and plus the fact that 3D viewers can’t agree on one model of TV, plus making a single model is making that model really unpopular among 3D haters, if there was a way you can turn any 2D TV into a 3D would be the perfect solution.  Pick any 2D TV you want, any brand, 15 inches to 10 inchesl, 720p to 2160p, 24 bit color to 36 bit color, 60 Hz for 480 Hz, highly processed pictures for movies, or sub 1 ms ping time for games, any physical display technology, budget to luxury, and add 3D with an External 3D adapter.   The model of selling a 3D adapter would be similar to adding a Surround Sound system to any TV you have.  You can buy giant speakers, or you can buy surround sound encoded headphones, or you can settle for the default speakers.

Is there a way you can add 3D to an existing 2D TV?  Well there is, and the technology is no longer patented.  The Sega Master System SegaScope 3D take a Sega Master System and let you play 3D games.   And the funny thing is that every TV available at the time cable turned any TV into a 3D TV, any brand, any size, RF, Composite or RGB connection, albeit for those limited Sega games.  They just use either a 240p x 30fps x 2 eye or a 480i x 15 fps x 2 eye. They alternate frames and sync the classes with the video.  With ping time of under 1 mcs, the glasses don’t need a sync signal.  If the Sega Scope 3D TV technology can be used, then any TV can be a shutter-based 3D.  And I believe shutter 3D is superior to Polar 3D.  There are more instances of 3D sickness and confusion with polar 3D vs shutter 3D.

It’s a lot cheaper, easier, and less laborious to add Sutter 3D to a non-shutter TV vs adding polar 3D to a non poplar 3D TV. Just because it’s done in a theater doesn’t mean it’s the best way to do it at home.   Just like surround sound encoded headphone is a more effective if you’re a single viewer compared to communal surround sound , especially if your room is very asymmetric and otherwise acoustically bad, shutter 3D is a cheaper solutiion for everything except Super Bowl parties.  The way it’s done in a theater is different because it’s a professionally designed building and serve hundreds or more at a time.   Shutter Glasses and Headphones are very expensive when you go beyond a certain number , and grody to share.  Communal speakers and disposable glasses are cheap and sanitary for many.  But shutter 3D and headphone are perfect for 4 people or less.

That is step 1.  Make any TV be easily turned into a 3D TV.  If it can be kept to $200 or less, it’s a lot cheaper than buying 3D pre added.  Plus it opens the entire TV inventory for both 3D lovers AND 3D haters.  If you want 3D TV, either buy any TV or use an existing one, just buy a 3D processor.  if you don’t want 3D, just don't buy the 3D adapter.

Another suggestion.  For Blu Rays and 4K discs, they can have combination 2D/3D discs. Just read one of the 2 eyes.  And because the 3D technology uses alternate frames and is not dependent on resolution, this includes 4K2D / 4K3D combo discs.  The average person is not going to notice that 2D is just one of the 2 eyes.  A few people notice the left-eye version looks weird because they saw it in 2D-optimized version and they complain.

Then I noticed, certain people are left eyed and others are right eyed.  If you fire a gun, you know the importance of knowing and using your dominant eye.  Therefore the 2D version can be selected as "left eye only" or "right eye only" Therefore the 2D standard should allow a director-defined left or right eye as the canonical 2D version to be played on a 2D TV and Blu Ray.  I just don’t know whether the way to get the best picture to let it be director-defined-dependent, or individual-user-defined-dependent.

Finally, the reason why the Super Bowl was rejected was because the format they shown was technically ATSC compatible, but it wasn’t practically 2D compatible.   If you saw a 3D broadcast and didn’t know it about this way side-by-side-half 3D works, you’d swear there was something broken with either the TV or the Broadcast signal.   And if you did, and you didn’t have a 3D TV, then the show lost themselves a customer, and with 70% of the households not having the ability to watch a 3D broadcast, even at 3D’s peak, it’s a loser to do 3D, or a bandwidth waster to have a separate 2D and 3D Broadcast.

Using the alternate frame strategy, just like Dolby 5.1 is encoded into the signal but is 2.0 compatible, and Closed captions are there if you need it, and unnoticeable if you don’t, a truly 2D-compatible 3D would be a "there if you have it, over your head if it isn’t", just like Color TV was in the 60s, and Stereo was in the 80s.  Also you avoid the problems of the original UHF color of black and white incompatibility, 2D compatible 3D TV would be a boon to 3D TV.

The secret to having 3D TV on 60 HZ standard HDTVs is 3D broadcasts would use a 720p/1080i/1080p x 30 Hz x 2 eye mode in an ATSC 2 tuner, but it would read as a 30 Hz x 1 eye signal on TVs without 3D.   If they want 2D to be 60 Hz in 2D, then ATSC 2.1 can have 60 Hz x 2 eye, or 120 Hz broadcasts, that read as 60 Hz x1 eye broadcasts on backward compatible TVS.  if there is a mode which can "lock out" the alternate frames either with a 2D TV or with a 3D TV selected in 2D Mode, then you make more 3D TV without ruining 2D TV.

I believe, based on the introduction animation, that Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 2012 was intended to be a 3D Broadcast, but Nickelodeon cancelled the 3D aspect because 70% of the kids would be rejected right at the front door, and that’s not a good business model.   But if it were a 2D-compatible 3D broadcast, then it probably would have been welcomed as the first regular series shown as a fully 3D show, yet would still be as popular as it was as a 2D Show, not shutting out customers.   3D customers may have watched it MORE religiously, just because it was 3D, and maybe even attract 3D viewer who normally wouldn’t watch it.

There’s one issue we have to fix: differing ping times.  I think the solution is already in place for another technology.  I assume an HDMI ARC send back a "display ticker signal" which indicates when the frames are begin displayed to synch up the audio on an external audio device like a Surround sound system or surround headphones.   If that’s the case, then a 3D processor can use that signal also.  Signaling when to switch between left and right eye.  So the 3D processor will work just as well with a 1 ms ping time as a 100 ms ping time.

There’s only one issue, pre-ARC TVs. My solution is an optical solution were the TV flashes Black and White for left and right to indicate a sync signal that a single pixel light-gun-like device with sub-microsecond ping can read "when" the signal is black and white and sync the signal until it becomes interrupted by a channel change, or a content change within the same signal.  And it only flashes Black and white on 3D content.  On 2D content it’s pure black. so there’s nothing to sync.

If these 3 soultions are followed by the industry, then  3D will be as common and as much of a non-issue as Dolby and DTS sound.   There will be no segregated 3D version which is limited to a first run and that's all.  You only need one 2D//3D combo disc, instead of separate 2D and 3D copies, and would be a good 2D copy.  4K3D would be possible with this setup, without having to make a separate 4K3D verison.  TV can be made 3D wihtout alienating the populatoin that doesn't like 3D.  And sometimes, its a devoted watching, other times it's background noise. No TVs will not be rejected because it is or isn't 3D.  And most importantly, the 3D purchase is independent of the TV purchase.  It would be stupid to sell an attached suround sound package to a big TV.  If one likes picture but not the sound, or vice versa, you lost a sale or force a compromise.  Same thing with 3D.   Your sales crew doesn't mention 3D unless they ask what 3D TVs you have, and you can say "Pick any 2D TV you want, and make it a 3D TV with this..."  That way everyone gets the combination of feautres they want.


I belive if these changes were in place, then people who don't want 3D will say it's exactly like suround sound.  It's there, I just don't notice it.  But if you want it you notice it.

Status: Acknowledged

Thanks for your thoughts on this.

on ‎04-06-2019 03:02 PM

@bobberucci There are still many 3D Theatrical releases, so film companies are not going to stop making their films in 3D.  It's the home relases tat cause a problem.


With 3D/2D combo discs that take intoa acoount the director's primary eye, then you can make every copy a 3D copy, just like every copy is a Dobly and/or DTS copy.   WHether you unlock that feature or not.. that's your business.


Plus a 3D add on module will dare you to "find the 2D tv you love best, and turn THAT TV into a 3D TV."  You could in threory have a big surround sound setup for as PLaystaiton 3D TV.  The Surround sound system doens't care what TV is attached to it.  ust the same, you can what whever you think the perfect 2D TV is, and turn it into a 3D TV, instead of having to settle between a great 2D TV with no 3D and a 3D TV with compromises, just because one has the feautre built in and the other doesn't.


I witness this many years agoat my friend's house on the Sega MAster System, and later witnese it myself on my own TV when I went retro buying.  I believe SMS was natively 240px60fps  so the 3D mode is 240p x 30fps x 2 eye.  But it could have been 480i x 30 fps or 480i x 15 fps x  2eye.


Fianlly if someone uses a sysytem whihc hides one eye in a 3DF/2D compbo pbraodcast, just ike they hide Dolby 5.1 in a Dobly 5.1/stereo broadcast, then 3D will be more accepted.


The reason for 3D hatred as becuase knuckledraggers didn't want to be FORCED to upgrade in order to watch their shows at a basic level.  Thayt's color worked in the 60s and NOT EARLIER, that's why stereo and closed captions worked in the 80s,   That's why Dolby AC3 worked on Laser Discs as a shoehorned in soluiton, and DVDs have surround devleoped in mind but made it 2 track compatible.


The network was forced to make a tough choice, either disappoint the 30% who bought 3D TVs at Super Bowl 2013 because their technology wasn't being used, or enrage the 70% of people who don't have the ability to watch 3D, and possible more who have too many guests to pass around the 3D glasses to, and force people to watch 3D, or watch twin squished images without the proper glasses.  I have empathy, I understand some people don't want 3D.  I believe the network made the right choice.


If the NFL and TV networks were smarter, instead of announcing the 2013 Super Bowl as the first 3D broadcast, I would have said "We are waiting until we develop a 3D Broadcast TV tehcnolgoy that doesn't interfere with 2D viewing.   If we were to force 3D now, 70% of the audience would be unable to view the Super Bowl, and you shouldn't have to be forced to either upgrage your TV, or even watch exclusively in 3D or nothing at all."  Or better yet, shut up and develop a 2D-compatible 3D  Heck 30 Hz was good enough for SDTV, hell, some NEW shows are STILL in 30 Hz, might as well use the other 30 Hz to hide the second eye.


But I didn't turn my back on 3D, I just accepted the fact that the grand opening was bombed.  I unerstand the road to 3D is going to be toughest new technology to wi people over on.  I remeber successful lauches of Closed Capitons and Stereo TV.  None of my knuckle-dragging friends and  neighbors has compalints about their TV shows.  Color ws successful in the 60s beccuas evenually the money they saved in making separate colro and B/W lines was more than the savings of not installing color.  You can't buy a B/W TV today. You can't buy a Mono TV today.  That's why I sugested it shouldbe like te Dolbyu Steroeo model, as a premium add o t ANY TV.  Surround sound is not actively hated.  3D is.  You got to overcome that 3D hatred becuase it almost ruined a Super Bowl, and you got to understand the disappointmen on both sides.

by Senior Social Media Specialist Senior Social Media Specialist
on ‎04-16-2019 01:54 PM
Status changed to: Acknowledged

Thanks for your thoughts on this.

on ‎05-15-2019 12:39 PM

Just wondering if you forwarded the idea of an external 3D processor to one of Best Buy's exclusdive brands.   Insignia perhaps?! Finally, a brand exclusive to Best Buy will carry a device exclusive to Best Buy.


Where else can you buy a 3D processor?


If you sold the 3D processor separately, you won't have any of the problems of a "3D Stink" for the high end TV buyer simultaneously with a "very expensive snob stink" for the average 3D buyer before the one 3D Super Bowl.


Also Best Buy would have the exclusive "2D/3D combo discs" and "4K2D/4K3D combo discs", but it would not be "large-print advertised".   The technology would be under a trade name, like "Solid Vision", which is what "Stereoscope" literally translates into..  Buyers of the 3D procesor would be told to look for the technology name on their media discs to make it work with 3D, (wihch will start as a Besy Buy exclusive) while simultaneously, not alienating 2D buyers with the word "3D" in big print..

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